Focusing on “the jurisdiction problem” is a distraction that is above my pay grade. Let’s focus on old fashioned discipleship, becoming true followers of Jesus Christ. I like this direction very much Steve.
Christ is Risen! Thank you so much for writing this. I discovered Orthodoxy through "Internet Orthodoxy" a few years ago but after walking into my home Parish, building a relationship with my parish Priest/Spiritual Father and getting Chrismated I found the internet to be nothing like what I found in the Church and a terrible place to remain in. Forgive everyone of everything!
Thanks for writing this. I too was around during those earliest years of AFR, and listening to talks during long commutes between Kansas City and Lawrence to get to the university was really formative for me and helpful during my catechumenate. Hopko's musings, Kevin Allen, the first version of Fr. Andrew's Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy lectures (which while flawed were way more lively than the replacement series); all of the content was illuminating and helpful, and rarely put me in an agitated or inflamed spiritual state.
I think the whole technocratic pressure of the COVID era and they hyper-wired state of the world just kind of broke me regarding a lot of digital content, especially the sensationalistic and panic-driven stuff. I got off social media (Facebook), replaced my smartphone with a basic cell phone, and bought an iPod classic off eBay to hang on to my last digital refuge: religious/misc. podcasts. But even now I feel like I've soured on most of that as well.
Silent commutes and headphone-free walks outside are becoming more and more of a reality simply by virtue of overstimulation and media fatigue.
Well said. This past week I was discussing some of these same issues with some folks. The trajectory of American culture based on humanism has plunged into not just self-determinism and "rugged individualism" but virtually solipsism that results in and is pushed forward by a feedback loop of outrage, polarization and self-defined "reality". The "Ortho-net" is merely a reflection of how the "counter-culture" is actually our culture in gold robes and black cassocks. Same "phronema", just different words to argue and use to lead us away from Christ. Thank you.
I think canonical boundaries are so important and we don't think about them anymore. As you note they simply don't exist online. This has lead to many, in my limited experience, enquirers and catechumens who experience Orthodoxy solely through these online cults of personalities. Or if they go to a local parish they simply go there for the clout of attending service and receive all of their spiritual education online.
I would suggest we limit clergy actions online but so much of online Orthodoxy is by lay people claiming expertise but it would still be help to put restrictions on what can be done online.
There's a fine line between cynicism and being realistic.... I think realistically, given the "air we breathe" here in America it is impossible to separate its influence on the Church. I have no clue what can be done except to "keep yourself pure and unspotted by the world" and pray.
I would suggest that if we focused more (MUCH MORE) on initial and continuing catechesis, this particular issue would organically go away without there being much need for direct restriction.
It seems like a general rule that the more people know, the more they realize they do not know. Also, in the context of solid catechisis, people will absolutely be taught how a person in the Church is given authority to teach others and in what circumstances.
PS: I think a lot of general "teaching" on Orthodoxy online is simply people asking questions and being given answers, like how it might happen at coffee hour on a Sunday: Q: "Hey, what is Pacha cheese?" A: "Let me give you a recipe!" A BIG problem is people not being able to discern which Questions apply to which Resources. Pascha cheese is a good question for anyone, because its isnt theological and its more like a nice custom.
Then there are questions appropriate for maybe a godparent, like "How can I get to liturgy more often with my 4 kids, I always go but cant ever actually be in the service, gah!!"
Somrthing like "Should I go to confession once a month or once a year" is a spiritual/theological question and its one for your particular parish priest. Whereas there are other less particular theological questions that need to be answered by someone with more formal theological education but not necessarily your specific priest.
Something I have seen a lot myself with both new converts and us old cradles (or as Dr Patitsas calls us, "Cribs" ;)) is just simple ignorance of Who To Ask. In nursing school, knowing your resources, who to go to with questions, chain of command in the medical setting, etc., were all basically the number 1 thing after perhaps general medical knowledge. This probably needs to be worked on more in parishes.
For myself, when my 5 year old son asks a church related question, I try to explain briefly why I am choosing the source I am. This question goes to Dad because he was an acolyte so he would know. This question goes to Fr. because he is the priest. We can look up this in a book. I can answer this one because its basic common knowledge. Etc. But this is really hard if you havent really been told or havent seen how to do it. I think it also isnt really common sense in our culture, where its sometimes seen as shameful if you cant independently find every answer on your own.
PPS: This very post of mine feels like a mix of "general coffee hour" talk and perhaps a little bit of "godparent" talk. :)
Another nail right on the head. I think about this problem very frequently, and your essay is a perfect summation of the issues at play. Thank you for addressing this in a straightforward way! It’s going to be a big stumbling block for parishes for quite a few years, I think. And thanks be to God that the bishops have started to meet this trend head-on so there is clear guidance.
So... I guess it's too late for me to suggest that you and Christian get back together for a YouTube/podcast discussing the chosen episode by episode from an Orthodox perspective specifically outside the bubble of AFR or jurisdictions with the intention of exposing the unchurched to the Orthodox faith? Well it was a dream... It would a still be fun to come up with names for the show
I agree with you and disagree at the same time, which is... weird.
I came to Orthodoxy in 2001, very much aided by resources on the internet. Of course back then, it was a few parish websites and Fredericka Mathewes-Green's "10 Things I Wish I Knew about the Orthodox Church before first attending".
I ended up moving to Europe, and the parish I attended - and was baptized in - was an hour away, and, in four years, I ended up making a few friends, but it wasn't like I felt like I was tightly in a parish community. I was eternally grateful for LiveJournal's Orthodoxy group, because even though I knew that for the most part, these were just people who weren't speaking for the Church, it was really my only access to an English-language Orthodox community.
What you say about keeping things offline is great - until you get to the reality of a lot of this country, where Orthodox parishes are few and far between. There are priests who are good at keeping in touch, and those who are not. People are spiritually hungry, and there is a lot to be said for there being some sort of *good* resources online.
As for me, I don't try to be any Orthodox preacher or teacher. But I've been Orthodox now for twenty years, it is precious to me, and so I write, I blog, I talk, and I talk about Orthodoxy. For many, in real life and online, I'm probably the only Orthodox person they are acquainted with. I do feel some responsibility in that. But, more than anything, I think that we have to stress that the Orthodox "experience" is not an online thing; it's between each individual and God, and the Church, not the internet, is the institution that God gave us to facilitate that.
You raise great points, Katja. Especially that "we have to stress that the Orthodox "experience" is not an online thing; it's between each individual and God, and the Church, not the internet, is the institution that God gave us to facilitate that."
I take your point about parishes being few and far between, and some clergy not being great at responding to calls and emails. However, if we address those needs with parachurch realities, we paradoxically end up not meeting the need.
Question: what is your take on the Antiochian Archdiocese appointing a priest to specialize in Internet work and to help priests work with new members to clearly establish what is out of bounds?
For what it's worth, the jurisdiction issue isn't just a problem for the United States but also Canada, Australia, Britain and western Europe, South America, pretty much any place that wasn't a "historic" Orthodox country which received a diaspora of immigrants from Orthodox lands. Are any of these other places any closer to solving it than the US? I really have no idea, but if it happened, it'd give me more confidence that it's at least possible.
Like a lot of people I came to Orthodoxy from Evangelicalism in 2020, when my church shutting down and/or implementing bizarre measures in response to covid was essentially the last straw knocking down my confidence in the Protestant paradigm/keeping me on the reservation. I was in a somewhat unique position of having quite a few Orthodox parishes within close driving distance, so I reached out to a couple, and the one that actually welcomed me instead of treating me like a disease vector was the first I visited. I was baptized there in 2021 and couldn't be happier with my parish, four years in.
I get your point about treating jurisdictions like a consumer, but I felt like I was in a position where I really had no choice. What was I supposed to do, write all the parishes on pieces of paper and draw one out of a hat? Intentionally go to one of the parishes doing the exact kind of stuff that my previous protestant church was doing in response to covid? That makes little sense. It's one thing hopping from one parish to another, but I guess I'm thankful I never even had to ask that question.
The limits of online Orthodox personalities seem obvious now. Some people did work I found helpful in the early stages when I had lots of theoretical theological questions and things of that nature, but over time I outgrew a reliance on that stuff and got bored with the crazy antics of many of them, and grew so tired of the Twitter circus that I deleted my account and never looked back. There certainly is something to the notion that the Internet seems to warp and draw out the worst in us.
I've found that many people to join my parish start off being really into popular internet personalities, but grow out of it over time, like I did, as they become rooted in the real life community. Online Orthodox content can be a good onboarding ramp, but there's certainly room to debate if it's really worth the negatives.
I really appreciate all your thoughts here and am finding them very helpful as I try to figure out how to articulate my own misgivings about the internet and Orthodoxy.
A few months ago I read this article about the Fr. Peter Heers situation:
Based on the statements in the linked article it seems that the supposed "scandal" of Fr. Peter's status doesn't necessarily have to be a scandal unless people want it to be one - from what I can tell the situation is pretty much out of his control. Do you have any further thoughts about that?
I'd give more credence to an official statement of the full assembly of canonical bishops.
If all of the bishops can officially declare that a particular person doesn't serve or teach canonically, that's a serious issue and scandal--especially if that person continues to serve and teach on his own authority.
Even if that person isn't teaching anything incorrect (in an academic sense), that self-directed authority changes the fundamental nature of what's happening.
Nice article, Steve. I just wish you would get to the conclusion that in the current US, Orthodoxy cannot successfully function outside its ethnic ghettos. Any other nation with a successful Orthodox presence includes the Church as the partner of the State. And those nations are NATIONS. Georgians, Greeks, Russians, Romanians, Bulgarians. Canada, the US, Australia, new Zealand---None of these are welcoming to Orthodox and never will be. Yes we have that fuzzy stories of oh look we have 3 inquirer families. Meantime, the Orthodox population declines more quickly. Both of my kids have zero interest in the church. Yes it's on me, but the Church provided them with nothing pertinent. The only chance of survival is to unify. But permit me to say the chances of this becoming a reality are 1%>
Glory to God, there are many good and healthy communities across the Church. We may not be able to change big picture things, but we can do what we can whenever we are.
Focusing on “the jurisdiction problem” is a distraction that is above my pay grade. Let’s focus on old fashioned discipleship, becoming true followers of Jesus Christ. I like this direction very much Steve.
Amen to that!
An important message. Thank you for saying it.
Glory to God. Christ is risen!
Christ is Risen! Thank you so much for writing this. I discovered Orthodoxy through "Internet Orthodoxy" a few years ago but after walking into my home Parish, building a relationship with my parish Priest/Spiritual Father and getting Chrismated I found the internet to be nothing like what I found in the Church and a terrible place to remain in. Forgive everyone of everything!
Let us forgive all things in Light of the Resurrection! Christ is risen!
Indeed he is risen!
Thanks for writing this. I too was around during those earliest years of AFR, and listening to talks during long commutes between Kansas City and Lawrence to get to the university was really formative for me and helpful during my catechumenate. Hopko's musings, Kevin Allen, the first version of Fr. Andrew's Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy lectures (which while flawed were way more lively than the replacement series); all of the content was illuminating and helpful, and rarely put me in an agitated or inflamed spiritual state.
I think the whole technocratic pressure of the COVID era and they hyper-wired state of the world just kind of broke me regarding a lot of digital content, especially the sensationalistic and panic-driven stuff. I got off social media (Facebook), replaced my smartphone with a basic cell phone, and bought an iPod classic off eBay to hang on to my last digital refuge: religious/misc. podcasts. But even now I feel like I've soured on most of that as well.
Silent commutes and headphone-free walks outside are becoming more and more of a reality simply by virtue of overstimulation and media fatigue.
Those boundaries around media sound very healthy!
May the Lord continue to lead you into deeper stillness!
Well said. This past week I was discussing some of these same issues with some folks. The trajectory of American culture based on humanism has plunged into not just self-determinism and "rugged individualism" but virtually solipsism that results in and is pushed forward by a feedback loop of outrage, polarization and self-defined "reality". The "Ortho-net" is merely a reflection of how the "counter-culture" is actually our culture in gold robes and black cassocks. Same "phronema", just different words to argue and use to lead us away from Christ. Thank you.
"Same "phronema", just different words to argue and use to lead us away from Christ."
That's it. Lord have mercy!
I think canonical boundaries are so important and we don't think about them anymore. As you note they simply don't exist online. This has lead to many, in my limited experience, enquirers and catechumens who experience Orthodoxy solely through these online cults of personalities. Or if they go to a local parish they simply go there for the clout of attending service and receive all of their spiritual education online.
I would suggest we limit clergy actions online but so much of online Orthodoxy is by lay people claiming expertise but it would still be help to put restrictions on what can be done online.
Yeah, I wonder if this is a bell we can't un-ring.
There's a fine line between cynicism and being realistic.... I think realistically, given the "air we breathe" here in America it is impossible to separate its influence on the Church. I have no clue what can be done except to "keep yourself pure and unspotted by the world" and pray.
That's a good word.
I would suggest that if we focused more (MUCH MORE) on initial and continuing catechesis, this particular issue would organically go away without there being much need for direct restriction.
It seems like a general rule that the more people know, the more they realize they do not know. Also, in the context of solid catechisis, people will absolutely be taught how a person in the Church is given authority to teach others and in what circumstances.
PS: I think a lot of general "teaching" on Orthodoxy online is simply people asking questions and being given answers, like how it might happen at coffee hour on a Sunday: Q: "Hey, what is Pacha cheese?" A: "Let me give you a recipe!" A BIG problem is people not being able to discern which Questions apply to which Resources. Pascha cheese is a good question for anyone, because its isnt theological and its more like a nice custom.
Then there are questions appropriate for maybe a godparent, like "How can I get to liturgy more often with my 4 kids, I always go but cant ever actually be in the service, gah!!"
Somrthing like "Should I go to confession once a month or once a year" is a spiritual/theological question and its one for your particular parish priest. Whereas there are other less particular theological questions that need to be answered by someone with more formal theological education but not necessarily your specific priest.
Something I have seen a lot myself with both new converts and us old cradles (or as Dr Patitsas calls us, "Cribs" ;)) is just simple ignorance of Who To Ask. In nursing school, knowing your resources, who to go to with questions, chain of command in the medical setting, etc., were all basically the number 1 thing after perhaps general medical knowledge. This probably needs to be worked on more in parishes.
For myself, when my 5 year old son asks a church related question, I try to explain briefly why I am choosing the source I am. This question goes to Dad because he was an acolyte so he would know. This question goes to Fr. because he is the priest. We can look up this in a book. I can answer this one because its basic common knowledge. Etc. But this is really hard if you havent really been told or havent seen how to do it. I think it also isnt really common sense in our culture, where its sometimes seen as shameful if you cant independently find every answer on your own.
PPS: This very post of mine feels like a mix of "general coffee hour" talk and perhaps a little bit of "godparent" talk. :)
Excellent points!
We all have something to offer. It's just discerning what we can offer in good conscience.
Another nail right on the head. I think about this problem very frequently, and your essay is a perfect summation of the issues at play. Thank you for addressing this in a straightforward way! It’s going to be a big stumbling block for parishes for quite a few years, I think. And thanks be to God that the bishops have started to meet this trend head-on so there is clear guidance.
Amen. Glory to God!
So... I guess it's too late for me to suggest that you and Christian get back together for a YouTube/podcast discussing the chosen episode by episode from an Orthodox perspective specifically outside the bubble of AFR or jurisdictions with the intention of exposing the unchurched to the Orthodox faith? Well it was a dream... It would a still be fun to come up with names for the show
Christian and I still look back very fondly on "Pop Culture Coffee Hour." That would be a lot of fun.
I wonder if both the creation and critique of art are ways to stay within the boundaries I outlined in the piece. Maybe?
I don't know if now's the time. Fasting seems like the move right now. One day, perhaps.
Appreciate the article, but is your title missing a word?
Wow that’s an obvious typo!
I agree with you and disagree at the same time, which is... weird.
I came to Orthodoxy in 2001, very much aided by resources on the internet. Of course back then, it was a few parish websites and Fredericka Mathewes-Green's "10 Things I Wish I Knew about the Orthodox Church before first attending".
I ended up moving to Europe, and the parish I attended - and was baptized in - was an hour away, and, in four years, I ended up making a few friends, but it wasn't like I felt like I was tightly in a parish community. I was eternally grateful for LiveJournal's Orthodoxy group, because even though I knew that for the most part, these were just people who weren't speaking for the Church, it was really my only access to an English-language Orthodox community.
What you say about keeping things offline is great - until you get to the reality of a lot of this country, where Orthodox parishes are few and far between. There are priests who are good at keeping in touch, and those who are not. People are spiritually hungry, and there is a lot to be said for there being some sort of *good* resources online.
As for me, I don't try to be any Orthodox preacher or teacher. But I've been Orthodox now for twenty years, it is precious to me, and so I write, I blog, I talk, and I talk about Orthodoxy. For many, in real life and online, I'm probably the only Orthodox person they are acquainted with. I do feel some responsibility in that. But, more than anything, I think that we have to stress that the Orthodox "experience" is not an online thing; it's between each individual and God, and the Church, not the internet, is the institution that God gave us to facilitate that.
You raise great points, Katja. Especially that "we have to stress that the Orthodox "experience" is not an online thing; it's between each individual and God, and the Church, not the internet, is the institution that God gave us to facilitate that."
I take your point about parishes being few and far between, and some clergy not being great at responding to calls and emails. However, if we address those needs with parachurch realities, we paradoxically end up not meeting the need.
Question: what is your take on the Antiochian Archdiocese appointing a priest to specialize in Internet work and to help priests work with new members to clearly establish what is out of bounds?
For what it's worth, the jurisdiction issue isn't just a problem for the United States but also Canada, Australia, Britain and western Europe, South America, pretty much any place that wasn't a "historic" Orthodox country which received a diaspora of immigrants from Orthodox lands. Are any of these other places any closer to solving it than the US? I really have no idea, but if it happened, it'd give me more confidence that it's at least possible.
Like a lot of people I came to Orthodoxy from Evangelicalism in 2020, when my church shutting down and/or implementing bizarre measures in response to covid was essentially the last straw knocking down my confidence in the Protestant paradigm/keeping me on the reservation. I was in a somewhat unique position of having quite a few Orthodox parishes within close driving distance, so I reached out to a couple, and the one that actually welcomed me instead of treating me like a disease vector was the first I visited. I was baptized there in 2021 and couldn't be happier with my parish, four years in.
I get your point about treating jurisdictions like a consumer, but I felt like I was in a position where I really had no choice. What was I supposed to do, write all the parishes on pieces of paper and draw one out of a hat? Intentionally go to one of the parishes doing the exact kind of stuff that my previous protestant church was doing in response to covid? That makes little sense. It's one thing hopping from one parish to another, but I guess I'm thankful I never even had to ask that question.
The limits of online Orthodox personalities seem obvious now. Some people did work I found helpful in the early stages when I had lots of theoretical theological questions and things of that nature, but over time I outgrew a reliance on that stuff and got bored with the crazy antics of many of them, and grew so tired of the Twitter circus that I deleted my account and never looked back. There certainly is something to the notion that the Internet seems to warp and draw out the worst in us.
I've found that many people to join my parish start off being really into popular internet personalities, but grow out of it over time, like I did, as they become rooted in the real life community. Online Orthodox content can be a good onboarding ramp, but there's certainly room to debate if it's really worth the negatives.
I really appreciate all your thoughts here and am finding them very helpful as I try to figure out how to articulate my own misgivings about the internet and Orthodoxy.
A few months ago I read this article about the Fr. Peter Heers situation:
https://orthodoxchristiantheology.com/2022/11/25/the-ecclesiastical-standing-of-father-peter-heers/
Based on the statements in the linked article it seems that the supposed "scandal" of Fr. Peter's status doesn't necessarily have to be a scandal unless people want it to be one - from what I can tell the situation is pretty much out of his control. Do you have any further thoughts about that?
I'd give more credence to an official statement of the full assembly of canonical bishops.
If all of the bishops can officially declare that a particular person doesn't serve or teach canonically, that's a serious issue and scandal--especially if that person continues to serve and teach on his own authority.
Even if that person isn't teaching anything incorrect (in an academic sense), that self-directed authority changes the fundamental nature of what's happening.
That's helpful. Thank you!
Nice article, Steve. I just wish you would get to the conclusion that in the current US, Orthodoxy cannot successfully function outside its ethnic ghettos. Any other nation with a successful Orthodox presence includes the Church as the partner of the State. And those nations are NATIONS. Georgians, Greeks, Russians, Romanians, Bulgarians. Canada, the US, Australia, new Zealand---None of these are welcoming to Orthodox and never will be. Yes we have that fuzzy stories of oh look we have 3 inquirer families. Meantime, the Orthodox population declines more quickly. Both of my kids have zero interest in the church. Yes it's on me, but the Church provided them with nothing pertinent. The only chance of survival is to unify. But permit me to say the chances of this becoming a reality are 1%>
Glory to God, there are many good and healthy communities across the Church. We may not be able to change big picture things, but we can do what we can whenever we are.