Insightful thoughts here that are also applicable beyond the specific context youth/young adult ministry.
Two comments. . .
1. Re. Your point "Even if a conference has no ministry content, why does that matter if people show up?" I'd add: "... and spend money, or will eventually become paying consumers in the church." So often it seems (esp in institutional Orthodoxy of an ethnically restrictive variety) that the objective behind events and so-called "ministries" (for adults as well as young adults) is fundraising and making money rather than spiritual formation, following Christ, loving our neighbour, etc. It's disorienting and disillusioning.
2. I too wanted to praise the work of OCF. I recently had the blessing of speaking at one of their regional conferences for the first time and was blown away by how focused it was on truly ministering to and spiritually challenging participants. It was also, by 'worldly' standards, just a tremendously well organized and high-quality conference. It kind of shows it doesn't totally have to he either-or. When a ministry environment is rich, well thought out, and inviting, it becomes 'fun' in its own way. Drawing closer to Christ and one another becomes something we experience as fulfilling and enjoyable.
Thanks, Steve. I had an older woman complaining to me that we don't have enough activities for the teens to do what we "used to do" - basketball tourneys and lots of Greek dancing. Yup, those were good social events, but were the kids really converted to Jesus Christ? Since they rarely come to church except on Pascha and for weddings and funerals, I sort of doubt it.
Yeah. One of my old colleagues at Y2AM used to bring up that quote about insanity: the repetition of the same thing while expecting different results. Why would the same events lead to anything different?
Steven, this is all a great article and a very important fact to highlight. Engagement without ministry oftentimes numbs a person's appreciation for the Church and desire for the Lord. They have checked a box as being part of the church after going to a conference or a networking night without engaging their faith at all. Then when the need arises in their life or they are convicted and feel a need for repentance and His light they look elsewhere because the "church" stuff was more of the same from the world.
You're right, Steve, and I see a similar thing more and more from pastors (fellow chaplains, mostly) who believe their greatest contribution is clinical-style counselling, rather than making the presence of Christ real in the midst of a conflicted and confusing world. And when apologetics take center stage away from sacramental theology, the results are predictable. You can't have a relationship with a theory or doctrine, but you must have a relationship with Christ. We approach Him and try to engage with the Gospel as if it were and idea, rather than a Person. This is definitely at least a western, enlightenment approach, if not specifically American. If you're weird, you aren't the only one.
Have you read Dr Tim Patitsas' Ethics of Beauty? I have been so appreciative of his work in this book for grabbing me by the head and forcing me to see a whole way of thinking that was (uh...and still is) more foreign to me than is acceptable, regarding "Roman" and "Greek" analytical and truth-focused "seeing" the world, leaving out the "Semitic" beauty lens almost entirely.
I think we mustn't worry about whether or not we're weird, and fall back on the premise that "if we always do what we always did, we'll always get what we always got". Because clearly what we're getting now, in terms of young adult retention and engagement isn't what we want to get.
I agree with you about the internet! I wonder about internet ministry because the young adults I talk with are overwhelmed by the amount of information they find labelled "Orthodox". Some of it is valuable and some of it is questionable and some of it is outright heresy - and there's no good way of distilling the good from the bad. We are probably naive if we think we can get away without an internet presence today, but I struggle with the right way to start that. Person to person (or groups of persons) provides the benefit of prayer and quiet and easy discussion with some control over the message and the experience. It's hard to make this happen on the internet.
The para-church angle is very interesting! Maybe we need to step back and refocus on one individual at a time. Thinking in terms of the Group of Young Adults has maybe diluted and obfuscated the goal because the target it so big and broad. Dialing it back to one individual, then a small group, etc might help us realize the value of experiential learning, relationships, prayer and quiet time. Maybe we should be thinking in terms of the parable of the lost sheep, get good at ministering to a few and relearn what works with a few before extrapolating that to a group of ten, fifty, a hundred etc. If we can do well with one, that's a start. Because a group of young adults at a conference or event is just a collection of individuals, right?
Christ Himself set up a model that might be helpful. He picked His twelve, spent time with them, then sent them out to do ministry.
Christ encountered Paul and called him to ministry. Paul then trained up leaders like Timothy. And Timothy led the Church in Ephesus.
I think parish ministry would work a lot better if we initially focused on cultivating a key group of leaders that we then empowered to preach and teach and form others. And so on.
I've run into Orthodox Christians using Jordan Peterson too. It's really discouraging when we have so many great writings from Orthodox or even other actual Christians already.
Yeah. I didn't even mean mentioning him to be a critique of his work (though I do have my concerns). But if we're going to craft strategies for ministering to young men, maybe we can use the wisdom of the Church?
Steve, you MUST check out the new Ancient Faith podcast titled “As Iron Sharpens Iron”. The 2 priests who are involved in making the podcasts are already pulling from scripture & the wisdom of the Church to respond to men’s issues. You guys need to connect; you are on the same mission!
That’s one of the many sources in this very long (but very thorough) video that explores why he’s a troubling and dangerous figure: https://youtu.be/hSNWkRw53Jo
Reading some articles on this blog that touch on "youth ministry" I'm surprised how much it sounds exactly like my Evangelical upbringing with its activities and programs. Before I started exploring Orthodoxy four years ago I had various issues with the entire "youth ministry" model, many of them the same things you touch on here - how they tend to be parachurch ministries, draw kids away from experience or engagement in "grown up" church, preoccupation with business-like numbers and analytics, and so on.
Maybe it's surprising because my parish has barely anything resembling this, kids first and foremost are participating in things the same as adults. Sure, we have Sunday school classes, a summer camp, and the occasional camping trip, but at lunch it's common to see kids, from older elementary through high school, sitting with the "grown ups" and engaging with them. It's always felt to me like the kids are actually integrated in the full experience of church, rather than shuffled off into "Kids' ministries." Kids are actively involved in the choir, serving in the altar, and so on, which I'm sure helps.
Since I've only ever attended this one parish, it's genuinely surprising to me that there are apparently quite a few Orthodox youth ministry type things that seem rather the same as Evangelical ones, beneath the Orthodox coat of paint on the surface. Considering the entire notion of "youth ministry" is a very modern invention no matter how you slice it, it seems that perhaps the way forward is to look back at how historically the Church handled the upbringing of young people. On the other hand, given the exceptionally bizarre situation in which we now find ourselves as a culture, and through invasive role of technology in our lives, one could certainly argue that the Orthodox approach has take all that into consideration rather than acting like those circumstances don't exist.
I completely agree with your viewpoints noted in this article. As a long time youth ministry volunteer and mother of 3- I often see the problem. “Kids” (is it the kids though? I myself have fallen into the FOMO trap) go through hoops to get tickets to the next “event” before it sells out and yet church on Sunday morning is not met with the same priority.
The thing is and why I keep going is that albeit “not the best approach” they do hear a message at our Goya meetings and pray that at some point in time that “distant voice” becomes top of consciousness and they come back to the church. Until a better way is figured out I keep thinking this is better than no message at all, because trust me that “time” will be filled up with some other not as fulfilling time waster.
Insightful thoughts here that are also applicable beyond the specific context youth/young adult ministry.
Two comments. . .
1. Re. Your point "Even if a conference has no ministry content, why does that matter if people show up?" I'd add: "... and spend money, or will eventually become paying consumers in the church." So often it seems (esp in institutional Orthodoxy of an ethnically restrictive variety) that the objective behind events and so-called "ministries" (for adults as well as young adults) is fundraising and making money rather than spiritual formation, following Christ, loving our neighbour, etc. It's disorienting and disillusioning.
2. I too wanted to praise the work of OCF. I recently had the blessing of speaking at one of their regional conferences for the first time and was blown away by how focused it was on truly ministering to and spiritually challenging participants. It was also, by 'worldly' standards, just a tremendously well organized and high-quality conference. It kind of shows it doesn't totally have to he either-or. When a ministry environment is rich, well thought out, and inviting, it becomes 'fun' in its own way. Drawing closer to Christ and one another becomes something we experience as fulfilling and enjoyable.
1. 100%. Disorienting and deeply disillusioning.
2. Yes, it doesn't have to be either-or! Life is a rich and 3D thing.
Thanks, Steve. I had an older woman complaining to me that we don't have enough activities for the teens to do what we "used to do" - basketball tourneys and lots of Greek dancing. Yup, those were good social events, but were the kids really converted to Jesus Christ? Since they rarely come to church except on Pascha and for weddings and funerals, I sort of doubt it.
Yeah. One of my old colleagues at Y2AM used to bring up that quote about insanity: the repetition of the same thing while expecting different results. Why would the same events lead to anything different?
Steven, this is all a great article and a very important fact to highlight. Engagement without ministry oftentimes numbs a person's appreciation for the Church and desire for the Lord. They have checked a box as being part of the church after going to a conference or a networking night without engaging their faith at all. Then when the need arises in their life or they are convicted and feel a need for repentance and His light they look elsewhere because the "church" stuff was more of the same from the world.
Yes! We undermines our own uniqueness, so to speak.
You're right, Steve, and I see a similar thing more and more from pastors (fellow chaplains, mostly) who believe their greatest contribution is clinical-style counselling, rather than making the presence of Christ real in the midst of a conflicted and confusing world. And when apologetics take center stage away from sacramental theology, the results are predictable. You can't have a relationship with a theory or doctrine, but you must have a relationship with Christ. We approach Him and try to engage with the Gospel as if it were and idea, rather than a Person. This is definitely at least a western, enlightenment approach, if not specifically American. If you're weird, you aren't the only one.
Beautifully said!
I want to write a bit more about this apologetics, head-based turn (and its roots in Enlightenment thought). Probably in a week or two.
Have you read Dr Tim Patitsas' Ethics of Beauty? I have been so appreciative of his work in this book for grabbing me by the head and forcing me to see a whole way of thinking that was (uh...and still is) more foreign to me than is acceptable, regarding "Roman" and "Greek" analytical and truth-focused "seeing" the world, leaving out the "Semitic" beauty lens almost entirely.
Not yet! It's been sitting on my shelf for far too long.
I think we mustn't worry about whether or not we're weird, and fall back on the premise that "if we always do what we always did, we'll always get what we always got". Because clearly what we're getting now, in terms of young adult retention and engagement isn't what we want to get.
I agree with you about the internet! I wonder about internet ministry because the young adults I talk with are overwhelmed by the amount of information they find labelled "Orthodox". Some of it is valuable and some of it is questionable and some of it is outright heresy - and there's no good way of distilling the good from the bad. We are probably naive if we think we can get away without an internet presence today, but I struggle with the right way to start that. Person to person (or groups of persons) provides the benefit of prayer and quiet and easy discussion with some control over the message and the experience. It's hard to make this happen on the internet.
The para-church angle is very interesting! Maybe we need to step back and refocus on one individual at a time. Thinking in terms of the Group of Young Adults has maybe diluted and obfuscated the goal because the target it so big and broad. Dialing it back to one individual, then a small group, etc might help us realize the value of experiential learning, relationships, prayer and quiet time. Maybe we should be thinking in terms of the parable of the lost sheep, get good at ministering to a few and relearn what works with a few before extrapolating that to a group of ten, fifty, a hundred etc. If we can do well with one, that's a start. Because a group of young adults at a conference or event is just a collection of individuals, right?
Christ Himself set up a model that might be helpful. He picked His twelve, spent time with them, then sent them out to do ministry.
Christ encountered Paul and called him to ministry. Paul then trained up leaders like Timothy. And Timothy led the Church in Ephesus.
I think parish ministry would work a lot better if we initially focused on cultivating a key group of leaders that we then empowered to preach and teach and form others. And so on.
Yes, exactly - that’s a brilliant goal
I've run into Orthodox Christians using Jordan Peterson too. It's really discouraging when we have so many great writings from Orthodox or even other actual Christians already.
Yeah. I didn't even mean mentioning him to be a critique of his work (though I do have my concerns). But if we're going to craft strategies for ministering to young men, maybe we can use the wisdom of the Church?
Steve, you MUST check out the new Ancient Faith podcast titled “As Iron Sharpens Iron”. The 2 priests who are involved in making the podcasts are already pulling from scripture & the wisdom of the Church to respond to men’s issues. You guys need to connect; you are on the same mission!
I haven't listened to it. Thanks for the note!
I have more than concerns. I think he is actively damaging the young people who choose him over the wisdom of the Church. This was an interesting article that made me worried about him https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2018/05/25/i-was-jordan-petersons-strongest-supporter-now-i-think-hes-dangerous.html
Oh yes. Forgive my understatement.
That’s one of the many sources in this very long (but very thorough) video that explores why he’s a troubling and dangerous figure: https://youtu.be/hSNWkRw53Jo
I've been watching Some More News for years and am always impressed by the thoroughness of their research.
Same! I remember their worked on Cracked back in the day.
Reading some articles on this blog that touch on "youth ministry" I'm surprised how much it sounds exactly like my Evangelical upbringing with its activities and programs. Before I started exploring Orthodoxy four years ago I had various issues with the entire "youth ministry" model, many of them the same things you touch on here - how they tend to be parachurch ministries, draw kids away from experience or engagement in "grown up" church, preoccupation with business-like numbers and analytics, and so on.
Maybe it's surprising because my parish has barely anything resembling this, kids first and foremost are participating in things the same as adults. Sure, we have Sunday school classes, a summer camp, and the occasional camping trip, but at lunch it's common to see kids, from older elementary through high school, sitting with the "grown ups" and engaging with them. It's always felt to me like the kids are actually integrated in the full experience of church, rather than shuffled off into "Kids' ministries." Kids are actively involved in the choir, serving in the altar, and so on, which I'm sure helps.
Since I've only ever attended this one parish, it's genuinely surprising to me that there are apparently quite a few Orthodox youth ministry type things that seem rather the same as Evangelical ones, beneath the Orthodox coat of paint on the surface. Considering the entire notion of "youth ministry" is a very modern invention no matter how you slice it, it seems that perhaps the way forward is to look back at how historically the Church handled the upbringing of young people. On the other hand, given the exceptionally bizarre situation in which we now find ourselves as a culture, and through invasive role of technology in our lives, one could certainly argue that the Orthodox approach has take all that into consideration rather than acting like those circumstances don't exist.
I completely agree with your viewpoints noted in this article. As a long time youth ministry volunteer and mother of 3- I often see the problem. “Kids” (is it the kids though? I myself have fallen into the FOMO trap) go through hoops to get tickets to the next “event” before it sells out and yet church on Sunday morning is not met with the same priority.
The thing is and why I keep going is that albeit “not the best approach” they do hear a message at our Goya meetings and pray that at some point in time that “distant voice” becomes top of consciousness and they come back to the church. Until a better way is figured out I keep thinking this is better than no message at all, because trust me that “time” will be filled up with some other not as fulfilling time waster.
We tried to point to a better way in our ministry training course, if you're curious:
https://effectivechristianministry.org